– The Private Equity Profits podcast with Seth Greene Episode 003
Beatrice Mitchell The guest is Beatrice Mitchell of Sperry Mitchell and company founded back in 1986. Today one of the oldest and most active independent m&a advisory firms in the United States. Beatrice is a Co-Founder and Managing Director of Sperry, Mitchell & Company, an investment banking boutique which specializes in arranging the sale or merger of private mid-market companies. She also co-owns Percival Scientific, a leading Iowa-based manufacturer of biological incubators and plant growth chambers.
Listen to this informative Private Equity Profits episode with Beatrice Mitchell about Selling Your Business Post-Covid.
• What differentiates Sperry Mitchell as an independent m&a advisory firm.
• What an ideal company to help negotiate a sell off exit looks like.
• The biggest difference between an entrepreneur and non entrepreneur.
• How COVID has impacted buying and selling strategies
• Lessons learned from challenges faced
• The book, The Complete Guide to Selling your Business
• How the current interest rate environment affects sellers coming to market.
undefined JIM DONOVAN: The topic today is, are you destined to deal? And I’m going to talk about what it’s like to work as a lawyer, or an investment banker, on transactions, corporate transactions. And I’m going to split the talk into two parts, mainly the second part.
The first part, I’ll spend a little bit of time on why it’s exciting to work on transactions, why it’s exciting to do deals. And then the second part will be on the skills that I think are necessary to do this job well. OK? So first part, why I think it’s exciting to work on transactions.
There are three reasons, I think. The first is what you’re working on is important. So you’re hired by the CEO of a company to advise them on taking the company public or on selling the company or on buying another company or merging their company with another company. That is, by definition, very important to the CEO.
It’s probably the most important matter the CEO has ever come across professionally. So it’s important. And secondly, you can help. You’re being hired because you have some expertise, because you know something that the CEO doesn’t know or doesn’t have. He does not have the expertise that you have.
So I think it’s exciting because it’s important and because you can make a difference. The second reason I think the job is exciting is because it’s dynamic. Every deal is different. Even within a deal, the deal changes. It morphs over time as the deal progresses. So when you work on a transaction, you’re constantly confronted with new challenges, with new issues.
And then from deal to deal, they’re entirely different. The people are different. The companies are different. So it never gets old. It never gets boring. I think that’s fun. So it’s exciting because it’s dynamic. Every transaction is different. That’s atypical for jobs. Typically, a job becomes somewhat routine over time and can become somewhat boring.
Not true on deals because every deal is so different. Third reason I think it’s exciting is because it’s intense. You are going to spend a lot of time and a lot of energy working on transactions, if you become an investment banker or a corporate lawyer. You’re going to be sequestered in conference rooms with your clients.
And you’re going to get to know them very well. And you’re going to work very hard. And that’s not always fun. But it’s mostly fun, I think. And in hindsight, when you look back on it, you’ll appreciate that it’s fun. But it’s exciting because it’s so intense. So I think the job is exciting because it’s important.
What you’re working on is important. And you can make a difference. Because it’s dynamic. It changes from deal to deal and even within a deal. And because it’s very intense. So what skills do I think are necessary to do the job well? I think there are six tangible skills that I believe are necessary, and then four intangible skills.
The six tangible skills start with interpersonal skills. You need to have strong interpersonal skills. Now, I don’t mean that in the sense that some of you may think in this room or people outside of this room may think. I don’t mean interpersonal skills in the sense of sort of slap you on the back salesman or saleswoman types of skills.
I don’t mean schmoozing skills. I mean the ability to convey to the client that they should have confidence in you, that you are competent. And that they should have confidence in you. Secondly, quantitative skills. Quantitative skills are important if you’re going to work on transactions. Now, you do not need to have been a math major or a physics major or an engineer in college to have the prerequisite quantitative skills.
undefined But you need to be facile with numbers. You need to be comfortable with numbers. Because much of what you do as a transaction lawyer and definitely as an investment banker will involve numbers and numerical analysis. So you need to be comfortable working with numbers. Thirdly, you have to have an interest in business.
You do not, contrary to popular belief, need to have a business background. You do not need to have worked in business for four, five, or three, or two, or one year. But you should have an interest in business. And the way I would say you could manifest that interest now, or what you might want to be doing now at this stage of your careers, is just The Wall Street Journal a couple of times a week, not even everyday, just a couple of times a week, just the front page, just the front page.
So take 10 minutes, that’s all it takes to read the front page of The Wall Street Journal two or three days a week. And you’ll become familiar with what’s going on economically around the world and what’s going on among some of the leading companies around the world. So develop an interest, acquire an interest, fake an interest in business.
But you know, have an interest, at least, in business. undefined Fourthly, you need to be discreet. You will be entrusted with confidential information that’s very, very valuable. And you don’t want to be the person who’s talking about the transaction upon which they are working when they’re on a train, or in an elevator, or at a restaurant.
You do not want to be divulging this confidential information. You need to be discreet. You need to treat it with discretion. And you need to exercise good judgment. undefined Next, you need to be OK with confrontation. A popular misconception that some people in law school have is they think of litigators as sort of conflict seekers.
And they think of transactional lawyers, or corporate lawyers, as the people who want to avoid conflict. You do not get to avoid conflict by becoming a corporate lawyer or an investment banker. You’re going to work on a transaction. The people sitting on the other side of the table from you have adverse interests to those of your client.
And you’re going to have to conflict with that person. You’re going to have to negotiate against that person. And you’re going to have conflict. So you have to be OK with that. You have to be OK with conflict. Last tangible skill is you need to be able to put the client first. A lot of people say that.
What does that really mean? It means that you need to be there for the client whenever they need you. You need to respond to their emails immediately. You need to call them back immediately when they call you. One, you want to really be responsive to the client. But two, you want to just as importantly, convey to the client that they are a priority.
So you’re going to get calls at 2:00, 3:00 4:00 in the morning. You got to return emails 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 in the morning. You got to return them really fast. You’re going to spend all-nighters with the client. You’re going to work very hard. You want to do, on top of that, whatever you can to make the client feel comfortable that they are a priority for you.
So those are the six tangible skills that I would say are necessary to do deals or to work on corporate transactions. Four intangible skills, the first is it’s helpful to be an open book, or a blank sheet of paper, whatever analogy you want to use to convey what I’m trying to convey, which is that you want to be a student when you first start out on this career as a transactional lawyer or an investment banker.
You want to find somebody who does this job really well. And you want to study that person. Put your ego aside and learn as much as you can from that person. You need to be a student of the business for the first couple of years. I can’t tell you how many people make this mistake. They come in with preconceived notions of what will make them good or bad at doing deals.
And they’re usually wrong. And you can’t do that. You need to put aside any preconceived notions that you might have and be willing to learn from people who are really good at doing what you’re hopefully going to do. So be a student. That’s very, very important. Secondly, have a system.
The best transactional lawyers and investment bankers have a system that they use for covering clients for doing deals. And it involves everything from mundane things to more sophisticated things. They don’t just wing it. They actually have a system that they’ve put together over time. And they follow that system throughout the course of the deal, from the time they make the pitch to the client to try and convince them to hire them to the time they attend the closing dinner and toast the client for the transaction being completed.
Have a system. Third intangible skill is take control. Most clients, in fact I think every client, wants you to take control. They’re hiring you because you have expertise that they don’t have, as I mentioned. They want you to tell them what to do. So tell them. Tell them. Don’t hem and haw.
Don’t sort of equivocate. Say, here’s what you should do. And if you do it, this is how things are going to turn out. And if you don’t, this is how things are going to turn out. But take control, take control and don’t be afraid to give the client advice right up front in a confident manner, as I said earlier, by conveying to the client you know what you’re doing.
You’re very competent and that they should have confidence in you. The last intangible skill that I think is very important, and maybe the most important of all the skills, is empathy, which is the ability to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. And too many advisors on transactions, too many deal lawyers and deal bankers don’t do this.
Take some time and think about what the CEO, or what your client, is going through. Think about what is probably important to that person across a spectrum of things, from emotional to professional. And articulate those concerns to the client as you advise them. Say I understand. You know, I bet you are under enormous pressure.
This is your company that you started. And we’re taking it public. You’re about to take it public and sell a big portion. Your name is on the sign, is on the billboard, is on the company letterhead. This is a big deal for you and your family. We got to get it right. Things like that. Have empathy for the client.
Put yourself in their shoes. Advise them accordingly. And make them understand that you appreciate the position that they’re in emotionally, professionally, and all across that spectrum. OK, so those are why I think the job is exciting. Those are the six tangible skills I would advise people to work on and to have, if you’re going to be successful in advising clients on corporate transactions.
And then those are the four intangible skills that I think are necessary. I’ll open it up for questions now. I could take questions for about 15 or 20 minutes if people would like. AUDIENCE: When you said, have a system that works for you from the danger that there’s too many things. Do you have any experience as to how you would build up that system? Do you just kind of borrow it from whoever you’re learning from? Or how do you kind of figure that? JIM DONOVAN: Yeah, that’s a very good question.
I think the best way to do it is to borrow it, as much of it as you can, from someone else. Because it’s very hard to recreate the wheel. It’s say, it’s inefficient to recreate the wheel if somebody has already created it. And so what I did for my system is I found somebody who is really good, objectively really good, I just didn’t think they were really good, they had done very well at my firm.
And I like to say about 80% of what I use in my system I copied, plagiarized with his consent from him. And then I added my own 20% over the years by bumping into walls and making mistakes and learning. But 80% I got from this person. So I didn’t have to start from scratch. If I had I would have probably been delayed five years in terms of my success.
Because that was able to really help me jumpstart my ability to advise clients and to do it effectively, not only advise them, but bring new clients in. Good question. undefined AUDIENCE: You said that you should confidently give an answer to your clients and tell them what to do. What do you do if aren’t confident in your answer or you don’t know the answer? JIM DONOVAN: I’d say two things.
First of all, the best way to convey a sense of confidence to the client is to be competent. And when I started in my job, I had these preconceived notions about– you know, I looked around the room at the other 500 people who were in my new associate class at Goldman Sachs. I looked around the room.
And over the course of two months I thought, well, that person is going to be really good. And that person is going to be really good. And that person is going to be terrible. And that person’s going to be– and I was completely wrong. Like 10 years later, all of who I thought were going to be really good, I don’t know where they are.
They’re no longer at Goldman Sachs. And some of the people I thought were going to be really bad turned out to be really good. Because what really mattered most was not how charismatic they were at that time or what business background they had or experience. It was how competent they became over the next two to three years.
So two answers to your question. First is hopefully, if you’re competent, you’ll never be in a position where you don’t know the answer. But if you don’t, don’t give the answer. Don’t fake it. Because there’s no better way to lose the client’s confidence than to give an uninformed answer or not well thought out answer.
A corollary to that is that more about this than the client does, no matter how smart they are. You’ve been doing this for some number of years or months or weeks. They’ve never done it before. And you have the entire firm behind you that you’re bringing to bear for this transaction. So the client may know a heck of a lot more about manufacturing pieces of chalk or desks or computer equipment.
Because that’s what they do. But they don’t know nearly as much as you do, even as a first year associate, about finance or about corporate law, depending on what you’re advising them on. So you will be more competent than they are. Don’t forget that. And give them the advice that makes sense.
If you don’t know, try and put the question of until you can become confident. And you can get the answer. You just have to work hard to get it. And if it’s a judgment call, give them your judgment. And tell them it’s your judgment. Lucas. AUDIENCE: I was just wondering how you– I mean, you obvious said it’s very intense.
How do you keep a balance with keeping it being very intense and you enjoying that, but also having time to release and relax without going crazy? JIM DONOVAN: Yeah, that’s a good question. And I’ve got three of my four children here. So they have different perspectives on this for different reasons.
But the short answer is for the first 10 years of my career– my oldest daughter is 16. She’s sitting there. The first 10 years of my career, I had no balance. So Emily didn’t see a lot of me from age one to six. And after that, I achieved balance by becoming senior enough at the firm and developing other interests and sort of partially transitioning out of the firm and doing things like teaching at UVA and other things.
But what I did during the first 10 years of my career, when I was really, really killing myself, pulling all-nighters, not coming home, all over the world, is I picked one thing that was really special to me. And I protected that one thing. And some of you who have been my students know this. But it can be anything.
So you pick this one thing that’s really special to you. For some people it’s reading a book, right? And you protect that. You read that book for half an hour. And that’s your release. And you don’t ever give it up every day. Because if you give it up for one or two days, all of a sudden, it’s three years later.
And you haven’t read anything. Right? Pick the one thing, if it’s cooking, cook for half an hour. If it’s wine, don’t drink for half an hour, but study wine for half an hour. Whatever it might be, do that and protect it at the expense of anything else. Because you need that to do the job well.
And you need that release. For me, I had to do a run. I did a run every day. I ran every day for 35 minutes, same run every day no matter what. You know, wherever I was, I had a pair of sneakers and shorts and a t-shirt, sometimes a hat and gloves depending on where I was. And I would just run outside.
And for me, I protected that. It didn’t matter what time of day. It didn’t matter how sleepy I was, how little or no sleep I had gotten. I did that no matter what. And that kept me grounded. And it gave me the perspective. Now, some people would say that’s not really balanced, right? That’s the one thing I did.
But that was the one thing I did. And then I achieved balance over time later. As my boys will tell you, I spent a decent amount of time, sometimes more time than they would like, with them. And I did that by just really working very hard at the beginning and building up enough of a reputation and enough confidence in my peers and being senior enough that I could do that.
AUDIENCE: So my question kind of combines two comments you made. One was where you talked about how there’s bound to be conflict when you’re negotiating with counter parties of transactions. And then your other comment was empathy for your client. Do you think the empathy could also apply to empathy towards the counter party? Because if you understand where they’re coming from, why they’re pushing a point, it might be able to help you navigate those tense moments.
JIM DONOVAN: Absolutely. Absolutely. So if you can put yourself in the counter party’s shoes, it can help in a couple of different ways. Substantively, it can help you come to an agreement. Because you kind of understand what their priorities are. And you see where there’s maybe some overlap between your client’s priorities and theirs.
And secondly, it can help you from a foreign perspective. Because it can just make you appear to be more conciliatory. Now, the thing you have to be a little careful about is sometimes your client doesn’t want you to appear conciliatory. Right? Because he’s very upset or she’s very upset with the party on the other side.
And sometimes, by the way, conciliatory can be viewed as weak. And so you have to know when to do that and when not to do that. But no matter what, having empathy does allow you to find common ground. Even if you’re not acting empathetic, you can find the areas where there’s some way for you to give.
And then a deal can get done. But you have to be careful not to– it depends on the situation– appear too empathetic or conciliatory. AUDIENCE: I was wondering if you had any advice for someone who is going to be a corporate lawyer at a firm focusing on finance on the legal side who might be interested in switching over to the business side of finance? JIM DONOVAN: Yes, I have advice on that.
So poor Kevin here, I am hesitant to answer this question in too much detail. I’ll tell you a story at first. And then I’ll answer the question. So Paul Mahoney, who was the Dean for most the time when I was here teaching, used to say to me, Jim, why is it that after your class, all these kids come out of the class and don’t want to practice law? What are you doing in there? What are you telling them? Right? And so I told him I’m just telling them there’s options.
Right? That you have options. You don’t have to practice law. You can also become an investor banker, consultant, public defender, whatever you want. So for people who are interested in going into let’s say investment banking or working in private equity, or consulting, or whatever it might be, I’d say two things to you.
One thing, which may not be that helpful, but I’ll say it anyway. And then the second will be helpful. The first is that statistically speaking, if you’re not going to practice law, if you’re a law student and you’re not going to practice law, statistically speaking you’re most likely not to practice law if you do it right out of law school.
So the people who have law degrees, but are not practicing law, like me, statistically there are more of them, a greater percentage of them who never practice law. And that makes sense. Because if you start practicing law, you kind of like it. It feels comfortable. You have a salary. It’s paying off your student loans.
You have an assistant. You’re at a firm. And things feel OK. So you’re not likely to leave. So if you’re going to not practice law, statistically, you’re most likely to make that move at the very beginning, not later. However, that’s not that helpful. Second point though, more to your question was, OK, if you’re going to practice law, how is the best way or what is the best way to make a transition into a different career, whether it’s investment banking or consulting or private equity, whatever it might be.
I have a very strong opinion on this. And it’s also backed up by statistics. The best thing you can do is you can practice law in the area that you think you might want to work in outside of the law. So let’s say you are interested in– I’ll take investment banking out of it– let’s say you’re interested in working in private equity, not as a lawyer, but as a private equity partner investor.
What you would want to do is work at a law firm where you cover private equity firms. And you would specialize in covering those private equity firms for a couple of years. And that’s helpful for two reasons. One is obvious. The other is not. And the other is more important than the first. The first is it helps you understand the business.
Right? The lingo, you understand what’s going on. You get educated in the business of private equity. That’s not the most important. The most important, the more important are the two by far is you develop relationships in the private equity space. Because nine times out of 10, and it’s actually more like 95 times out of 100, when a firm, whether it be a private equity firm or an investment bank, hire someone out of a law firm to come in and work, not as a lawyer, but as a banker or as a private equity person, they are hired because they knew somebody at the firm.
Not they schmooze with them or took them to lunch or played tennis or golf with them. They had worked with the firm on transactions. So you’re a second year associate at a law firm at Sherman and Sterling in New York. You’re covering private equity firm X, Y, and Z. You’re going to be sequestered in conference rooms with those private equity folks a lot.
You’re going to spend a lot of time with them. Remember it’s intense? You’re going to get to know them. After the transactions over, keep that relationship going. Because a year later, you can call up your peer at that firm. And you can say, you know, I’m really interested in potentially working in private equity.
I like what you do. And I’d love to have lunch and talk about it. And that person will say, great. You know, it’s not a cold call. It’s very warm. You’ve stayed in touch with them. And they’ll say, not only should you come over, but here’s the group that’s actually hiring at our firm.
Here are the people you’d interview with. Let me talk to him first. Oh, this guy here is really mean. Stay away from this topic. This woman over here is really nice. Focus on this with her. They’ll coach you through the whole thing. It’s like you can’t lose. Right? So you get hired. That’s the best way to make the transition.
Focus on the relationships that you make with the firms you cover, the people at those firms you cover, if you want to make that switch. Much easier to go that way than through some headhunter. That’s very rare that that route works. Long answer to your question. Kevin. AUDIENCE: So I have a question about you talked about the dynamism as one of the things that attracted you to practice.
JIM DONOVAN: Yes. AUDIENCE: In my experience, dynamism is a two way street, right? I mean, there’s the ups. And there are the downs. And I do think that like getting to the point in your career where you embrace the dynamism and start to enjoy the dynamism is a really key part. It strikes me from listening to you talk over the years, that happened fairly early in your career.
And I was just curious if you could talk about how you came to embrace the dynamism of the work. JIM DONOVAN: Yeah, that’s a very good point. Because what will often happen is the changes will– I mean, they can either perceived and embraced as fun. Or they can be stress-invoking, stress-inducing.
Right? You can say, oh my god, everything I just worked on is now thrown it away. I got to start from scratch. This is a disaster. And by the way, the CEO just left. I got a new CEO. I don’t even know this person. All the time I spent with the CFO, whatever it is– the people can change in the middle of a deal.
The deal can change. You can view that curveball as a positive or a negative thing. You can either embrace it. Or you can become intimidated by it. And so I’d say a couple of things. The first is I early on– I think it’s helpful, by the way, to work on more transactions, rather than less. So if you’re going to work as a corporate lawyer or as an investment banker, put yourself in a position where you’re working on many deals, not just one or two.
Because one, it gives you the experience earlier to deal with curveballs. Because if you’re five years into your career and you’ve never had a deal blow up, on the one hand, that’s really lucky for you. On the other hand, you haven’t faced that adversity. And when one does blow up– and it will– you’re going to freak out.
Right? So the more transactions you work on at the beginning early on, the more likely you’re going to be able to deal with any curveball that your thrown. I was fortunate in that I got to work on a lot of different things my first couple of years, because of the way my firm operates. And so in the first couple of years, I probably got 10 years worth of curveballs thrown at me.
And after the first couple, I realized actually, these can be good. And you can learn from them. And it didn’t ruin me. I didn’t die. I wasn’t, you know, fired. The deal went on. You pick yourself up. And you proceed. So one of the best ways to deal with that issue is to try and work on many deals.
So that you experience it as early on as you can in your career. And you realize it’s not career ending when that happens. Secondly, is you just have to have the right attitude. You have to realize that along with this being a dynamic job and a dynamic process, comes the fact that it is exactly that.
It changes. And so you can’t get wedded to a particular ending to the transaction. So if you’re working on an exclusive sale, don’t pick a buyer who you think, OK, this is the perfect buyer for my client’s company. We’re going that way. Because chances are it’s not going to end up there.
So don’t become intellectually wedded to a certain outcome early on in a transaction. By the way, don’t even become intellectually wedded to the transaction occurring. Because the best advice you can often give to the client is don’t do this deal. Don’t do this deal. Talk about trying to establish credibility with a client, right? You’re advising them to do something that is directly opposed to your own interests.
You don’t get paid if this stops, right? Your mandate is over. You’re no longer being paid. And you advise the client to say, no, don’t do this deal. And by the way, terminate me. That’s basically what you’re saying, terminate our relationship. That’s a great way to establish credibility.
But also, another way to deal with the ups and downs of the dynamism of the business is to not get wedded to a certain outcome right away. If you do, you’ll probably be disappointed. If not on that deal, you will be at least 50% of the time. Because the deals never end up ending the way you think they’re going to end, or usually don’t.
Actually 60%, 70% of the time they don’t end the way that you– that answer your question? What else? Time for maybe one or two more. Anything else? AUDIENCE: How do you deal with like, an unreasonable demand from a client, maybe in terms of like a deadline that they want something done or if you’re doing a certain deal and they want something that’s sort of a provision in the agreement that’s very unreasonable? How do you balance that between explaining to them that it’s like not possible? JIM DONOVAN: Yes, that’s a very good question.
Because you will get that. You will confront that often. I believe the best way to do that gets to my intangible skill number three, which is take control. So what I would do in that situation, what I’ve done thousands of times, is I will say to the client, no, not in your interest to do this. And I’m sorry.
My job is to protect you. I can’t do it. It doesn’t matter to me. I’m happy to put this provision in. I’m happy to accept this deadline. If I put this provision in, it’s going to be terrible for you and your company. I’m not going to do it. If you give me this deadline, I will not be able to achieve the product, the work product, that you want me– I will not be able to deliver the work product that you want me to deliver.
I will not do a good job. I’m not going to do that to you, client. So you turn it around on them. You don’t say– you never say, well, that’s unreasonable. I can’t work that hard. I can’t make that deadline. No, no, no. That’s not what you say. You say, I’m not going to do that to you.
You want me to finish this in two weeks? No. I won’t. I’m sorry. I won’t do that to you. You’re too important to me for me to do that to you and your company. Because if I do meet that deadline, it will be bad for you. Because I will have not have done the work that’s necessary for this transaction to complete in the way that it should be completed for you and your company.
That works most of the time. If it doesn’t work, then they’re not a good client. Right? Because I mean, you really don’t care about the provision for yourself, that they’re asking you to do something unreasonable. You know it’s objectively unreasonable. And it’s not going to go anywhere.
Right? So you tell them, I’m not going to let you do that to yourself. I’m not going to do it to you. I won’t be part of that. I care too much about you. Right? Sometimes I say similar things to my kids. They’re here. So I can’t elaborate more than that. But I’m not going to let you do that.
Because it’s bad for you. Right? No, you can’t have 17 somethings, you know, candies. It’s not good for you. Not going to let you do it. What else? undefined Anything? OK. No? OK, great. Well, thank you, everyone. And have a nice break. Thank you for sitting here on a Friday and listening to me talk.
The Private Equity Profits podcast with Cliff Locks Episode 001 Michael Livian The guest is Michael Livian, founder and CEO of LivianCo. an Investment and Wealth Management Company. Michael has over 20 years of experience in the financial services industry. He was the Chairman of the Executive Committee and Head of Asset Management at Safdie Investment Services Corp. (subsidiary of the Swiss private bank, Banque Safdie). Prior to this position he was a Managing Director at Speed Ventures, a primary pan-European private equity/VC firm. He also worked as an Associate Director for Bear Stearns & Co. in New York and in Italy with a special focus on fixed income and credit derivatives. He holds a summa cum-laude MSc degree in Economics from the University of Milan. Michael published several academic articles and books on quantitative finance, fixed income and equity valuation. He is a CFA charter holder, a member of the New York Society of Security Analysts (NYSSA) and the co-chairperson of the Private Wealth Management Committee at NYSSA. He lives in New York with his wife and three children.
Listen to this informative Private Equity Profits episode with Michael Livian about the growth of the alternative investments industry.
Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:
• How he helps clients achieve combining investing with purpose and fulfillment.
• The best percentage for time split between portfolio company analysis/operations and evaluation of new investment opportunities.
• Attributes that make a business a good candidate for a leveraged buyout.
• The typical capital structure prevalent in LBO transactions.
• Red flags you would look out for when assessing a potential investment opportunity.
Michael is the founder and CEO of Livian & Co. He has over 20 years of experience in the financial services industry. He was the Chairman of the Executive Committee and Head of Asset Management at Safdie Investment Services Corp. (subsidiary of the Swiss private bank, Banque Safdie). Prior to this position he was a Managing Director at Speed Ventures, a primary pan-European private equity/VC firm. He also worked as an Associate Director for Bear Stearns & Co. in New York and in Italy with a special focus on fixed income and credit derivatives. He holds a summa cum-laude MSc degree in Economics from the University of Milan. HeI published several academic articles and books on quantitative finance, fixed income and equity valuation.He is a CFA : charterholder, a member of the New York Society of Security Analysts (NYSSA) and the co-chairperson of the Private Wealth Management Committee at NYSSA.
Cliff Locks 1:05 Welcome to the private equity profit podcast. I’m Cliff Locks your host and with me today is Michael Livian, the founder and CEO of a lending company, an investment in wealth management company. Michael, tell us a bit about your background and how you got started.
Michael Livian 1:20 Hi Cliff, thank you for having me on your show. Very excited to be here today started, actually in a different country. I was born in the US but raised in Europe. That’s where I started my career. And I moved to the US about 20 years ago, I started working for a big Wall Street firm, and I was more of an academic. I published a book with Italian Publishing Company of Bloomberg. And I was working with universities, I was very involved in the fixed income space. And then I transitioned more to the venture capital and private equity space. And in 2004, I was hired to run the asset management of a Swiss private bank here in the United States. And after several years of being involved with wealth individuals in the asset management industry, I decided to start my own firm with some partners, but large caliber large family offices. And that’s how I got started. The idea was to create an innovative business that caters to the needs or modern needs of wealthy families and business owners. And since then it’s been a phenomenal journey journey.
Cliff Locks 2:34 Fantastic. I’m glad you’re helping a lot of family offices to be able to help their high net worth individuals that are part of their team. So I’m assuming you’re also doing multifamily offices, and then single family offices.
Michael Livian 2:48 Among others. Yes, so multifamily offices, single family offices, that large wealth individuals, that that’s my basic client,
Cliff Locks 2:59 How do you help your clients achieve combining investing with purpose and fulfillment?
Michael Livian 3:05 It’s I think, understanding what wealth is for for a wealthy individual or for wealthy family is it’s a multi pronged exercise. It’s it’s not only about the money and your returns, think the wealthier people get, and the more complex needs become. And the larger the families, the discourse is elevated more to what the values are, what the purpose of that family or that individual is in life, what the legacy that they want to leave behind them is. So we work through several assessments, and help our clients, not every client is a good candidate, but many clients, they really want to address those type of issues. And more and more what we are seeing is there is an alignment between the value values and purpose in life and also the way they want to invest their funds. And the So in other words, ESG is playing a role now.
Yeah, yes, g i think ESG is, it’s definitely I think it’s an acronym that has a big appeal on people, I think that it’s aligning the value. So ESG, it may be everything and nothing. It depends what you include and how you define history. But it’s really determining defining what the purpose is, you know, for that family or that individual and investing in a way that is consistent with that. So it’s different families have different views and different interests. And it’s a transition not everybody is like that some people are still really looking just at at rates of return. They’re not making an impact. But I think that the way I will look at this when we’ve been doing a lot of work and Following the research of fidelity and Beynon company, and having been discussing this for many years with a lot of professionals, what we see changing is it’s for those people that actually started the business in school. And if you think of the Mazda three, turn, you know that there’s a pyramid and the base of the pyramid are really basic needs, you know, shelter food, as you get more comfortable, and you fulfill and meet those needs, your your needs evolve, and there are different things that you’re looking for in life. And the same applies to wealth. And I think that the as we change what we do, as generations changing, what we’ve seen is that that if you survey, a baby boomer, or for those participants, so that the podcast that did not know that those individuals that were born right after World War Two, their needs are very different their views their values than the Gen Xers and Gen Y, or millennials, you know, or generations that were born after 1960, they, they have a different view of the world, they are more or less worried about their their basic needs.
They’re specially among wealthy people, that our clients, they’re more interested about finding purpose, having more balance in their life and worker and retiring and having plans in place and, and doing things that are meaningful in their life. So I think, as we evolve, you know, as a society, as an affluent society, these topics are going to become more and more relevant.
Cliff Locks 6:50 That’s very interesting. In other words, when you look at the, we have parents, they’ve been successful at this point, they have the next generations, which is their children. So if you look at the time and the quality that can be put together, where they’re spinning knowledge and education together between the parents and the children at this point, to understand their responsibilities, and the wealth that’s within the family that will continue as a legacy to go forward to be able to do good, and also to support, you know, the next generations at this point. So us actually spend time with the other generations, I mean, the children have that wealthy family at this point to help them carve a plan together and be part of the fabric of what makes the family. Yes,
Michael Livian 7:36 yes, yes, yes. Yes, a lot of the research that that that we have been reading is that that there is a positive correlation between happiness of individuals and the next generation, and having a sense of the history of the family and the heritage and the legacy and creating that bridge. It’s also a way to make everybody happier, you know, it’s like,
Cliff Locks 8:03 so the family dynamics, when they work together with one of your team members is actually addressed at that point, it actually becomes a healthier and happier ecosystem, let’s say within the family at that point. Quick question, what are some of the biggest challenges your clients are facing now?
Michael Livian 8:20 I mean, I think that at this specific point in time, obviously COVID as the gigantic challenge, I would say, for some people financially, I think even very wealthy individuals that are heavily exposed to certain areas of the real estate market, I think they are a little challenge. But for most people, I think it’s not even financial, it’s really the level of anxiety and fear, fear of the future and the, you know, questioning, you know, their their lifestyles, and where they’re gonna live, if they want to stay. I mean, we’ve seen a lot of people move around in the last year or so it’s like, people that were very deeply rooted in in a location, and they just overnight are uprooted. And they move to different states or, and so there is a lot of anxiety yet not. And, and I think that that’s probably today that the biggest issue, but I do anticipate that with the rollout of the vaccines, these will actually pass and I think we’ll hopefully we’re closer to the end than the beginning of this problem. And so that is kind of one of the main issue specific to the current circumstances. And then you have general issues, I think, our clientele there prime, they’re mostly professional business owners and entrepreneurs. And I think that the speed of the change that technology is bringing About his displacing a lot of people, a lot of it’s, it’s it has become increasingly more challenging whatever industry you’re in, to deal with the disruption that technology is bringing about. So that is also a big area of concern for our clients, the lifecycle of products, the life cycle of their specific industry is changing. And, and they need to adapt. And it’s, I don’t think that previous generations were faced with this issue. And then that’s another area where we actually converse with the, with our clients, very smart people, business owners, but that they’d like to hear from us what what we see in the marketplace, you know, we were deeply involved with the companies of all kinds and all sides, and we listen to their management calls and participate, you know, to a lot of conferences and get to know really what is happening in a lot of like, the most successful firms and we share some of the findings with our business and our owner clients
Cliff Locks 11:08 are very good. I sit on the board of directors of five companies on finding the same type of disruption that takes place at this point. Most of the companies are more entrepreneurial in their understanding is we have to disrupt ourselves at this point, before you get disrupted. What we’re finding some of the technology that’s out there in hydrogen, some medical appliances, like some of its, you know, many decades old, the technology, it’s had incremental increases, but not exponential type of increase in renewing what that engineering looks like inside those products. And we’re finding it’s the entrepreneurs that are disrupting these these organizations. But you brought up something very, very important, the conferences, maybe the zoom calls that are out there at this point in time is a way to get educated. And I think, to be proactive at this point.
Michael Livian 12:00 Yeah, I’m very optimistic about the future, I think, I do think that whatever is going on today, in the world, and with technology and digitization of almost every process offers an opportunity for people to improve and not to be displaced by technology, because I think that that, as humans, we’re always going to be superior and, and
Cliff Locks 12:29 so it’s just about educating ourselves and upgrading our knowledge and our skills. I think you’re brilliant, I think you laid that out very, very nicely the idea of the individual, and those that own the companies need to take the initiative to understand we’re going to need to re educate the workforce. Some of the manufacturing may have something called a kobach, meaning there’s a robot but the individuals working next to it, the robots doing a lot of the menial, repeatable tasks, but they can coexist together and someone’s going to have to program and keep an eye on in run those robots at that point, it’s probably a technician at that point, which will get paid more than somebody, you know, running on the line. So let me ask you, what does the growth of the alternative investment industry look like from your perspective?
Michael Livian 13:20 It’s a very, very, very good, an interesting question. First of all, I think that it is important to define the alternative investment space. I think that that. Again, I think it’s easy to put like a label on something. But what is an alternative? Is it real estate, venture capital, private equity, hedge funds, commodities? cryptocurrency, what what is it? That is included in in the definition? And I think that each subcategory of what you may define alternative investments, they have, certainly different paths in their evolution. I think that first of all, the fact that you’re in an environment where structurally interest rates are low, despite the short term gyrations that you may have had recently with the 10 year Treasury, you are still in a low interest rate environment and you are in an environment where valuations in the public markets are pretty high. So there is a very large demand for alternative assets in general. And I think that’s going to continue and I think it is going to evolve Having said that, I do believe that within the asset, alternative asset space, there are a lot of players that don’t really deserve to be there. In the end there are there’s going to be a pretty stronger so say Natural selection and evolution. And I think that that, specifically, let’s say, any person can start a hedge fund, you know, it’s like, but there’s not that many great hedge fund managers. I mean, it’s really very few are very large. So I do think that that the the compensation structure in some of the hedge funds is going to change. Okay, it has started to change, I think there’s gonna be more consolidation. And, and I think that there’s always going to be a big appeal. But I think it’s gonna look very hedge fund industry is gonna look very different in the future. I do think in the private capital markets, both private equity and private credit, you still have tremendous opportunities, in a way becoming also more liquid. You know, there are marketplaces where you can exchange physicians and loans and you have a lot of participants. And you may get higher rates still very highly of sub sectors of the alternative space. And then I can go on, but I think probably these are the broadest categories are solid ation in the hedge fund world. Still expansion in private equity, VC, private credit, as long as credit remains cheap and available, you’re not gonna have a lot of hiccups there. But again, private markets are heavily dependent on credit. And we are, I would say, in the expansionary phase for credit, but this is not going to last forever. So I think it’s important to be very wise, as an investor, where you’re when you’re approached the space,
Cliff Locks 16:36 recognizing there’s a pressure to put money to work in the five year private equity cycle, what industries or strategies do you think make the most sense right now,
Michael Livian 16:46 clearly, I think what we have seen in the last year is a strong demonstration healthcare, biotech and Life Sciences space. There are phenomenal opportunities, it’s, it’s an industry that still offers a lot of opportunities for extra returns or additional returns, because it’s a little bit behind the other industries, when it comes to de innovation other than the pharmaceutical sector in particular, or the life science or the biotech, but the healthcare sector as a whole, because it is heavily regulated. So it has not evolved as fast as a lot of other areas. So the technology there can really create a lot of incremental returns. And there’s a lot of opportunities there. I think that’s certainly a very important area. So if you think of the two areas that you have a lot of regulation that kind of slows down the evolution of an industry, there’s these two giant areas of healthcare and the financial sector. So I think they both are probably in the early cycles of a massive evolution. And in that offers, obviously opportunities for returns for investors. So it’s, it’s, I would say probably a little bit more between the VC and the private equity, not your classic private equity, leveraged buyout, I do think also, when it comes to the private equity, space, logistic and infrastructure space offers incredible opportunities. I think, again, in the US, the percentage of ecommerce in retail sales is still pretty small, compared to the entire pool of retail sales that are happening. And in I do think that the backbone of e commerce is really the logistic that’s so you know, storage facilities, and transportation. So those are kind of assets generally offer good cash flows, and they’re pretty stable, and they have potential good growth rates. And I think those are private equity investors, the ideal candidates, you know, you can level them up and increase your rates of return. So those are the main things that come to mind. But there’s obviously a lot of other areas of interest. I think it depends also on the on the style and appetite of the private equity operator.
Cliff Locks 19:09 Tell me a little bit, what credit ratios do you look at when assessing the financial health of a borrower.
Michael Livian 19:17 This plays an area of great interest for us, we look combination of purely quantitative metrics that we can pull from the balance sheets. And I think we have a very close relationship with the NYU professor or former professor at Altman, that is a dear personal friend of mine and developed the z score model. So we use his model with many other evolutions. There’s another academic by the name of Campbell, that has developed other tools. So they they give us a little bit a more holistic sense of the health of firm then obviously alongside those, those are, I think they give you a much better probability of default. But alongside those, what we use are more traditional metrics. So we use will be data ratios, that to EBIT ratios, debt to assets, debts to capital, obviously we normalize the cash flows, we look at the kind of averages over time we look at peers. So there’s a number of things that go into that. And most recently, we have not employed utilize this tools, yet, but we are working closely with some FinTech companies, they are doing a lot of interesting work, I think that they are providing their accounting solutions to companies. And they pull the data almost instantaneously from their accounting systems and from their bank accounts. And they can actually, in real time, look at the evolution and credit worthiness of the borrower. And they even lend to borrowers based on those metrics. And so there’s a lot of old school classic stuff that goes into the analysis of the credit analysis for a borrower or issuer. But there’s more and more exciting stuff that is also coming online now.
Cliff Locks 21:23 Very, very positive. And I’ve seen one of my companies is utilizing those lines of credit. In other words, we’re on walmart.com, they’re doing hundreds of 1000s of dollars a week in that line of credit was very, very important to be able to allow the continual growth in that particular market. So when Yes, they have access to our bank accounts, and they understand the cash flow that’s coming from Walmart into our accounts, and they lend against it. So it maps up very, very nicely. Michael, what are some of the red flags you would look out for when assessing a potential investment opportunity?
Michael Livian 21:56 red flags, I think that, first of all, what, what we have learned in after many years of dealing with borrowers companies and management and investments, is that probably the most important aspect that you want to look at when you evaluate a business or an opportunity is actually the industry and the industry dynamics. It’s not focusing on the specific product, or the management of the company. But the first thing that we would do to identify if there are red flags, we’re just going to look at the industry dynamic. How does this industry look like? in which direction? Is it going? Is it growing? I mean, how many participants are here? Is it prone to changes and disruptions are the companies that we’re looking at the re on top of their game, or they’re behind? So it’s not really a red flag, but that’s contextual, I mean, if an industry is going in the wrong direction, we’re not going to put money behind it. Now red flags is, first you start with the management. I mean, you want to have credible management that is honest, transparent, has the right incentives, communicates with investors, you know, sets proper goals and shows a track record of achievement when they fail to do that, or they’re not transparent, that is already too. And then you have a number of accounting metrics. You know, if you have big discrepancies between earnings and cash flows, that is typically a red flag for you. So I think it’s a, it’s not that difficult, but that, you know, there are tools that we have available at our disposal, when we look at the accounts, to see if things are off, you know, revenue recognition, discrepancy between cash flow and earnings ending on the specific industry, the working capital cycle starts to look off menu, you can start to pinpoint, but I think that that, before you look at the financials, you want to look at the business and the management. The financials are a consequence of what the management is in the business. It’s if you have poor management, low quality management. For us, it’s an awful red flag
Cliff Locks 24:10 for a very good, well seasoned team is very, very important to have consistent results and maybe serial exits, maybe they’ve built and sold a few companies. Let’s look at some of the value your fine team brings forth. In other words, we’ve got a high net worth individual, they probably have a business that they’re running at this point, you know, they are starting to get into their 50s 60s you know, they need to look at succession planning. You know, do I continue to prepare, you know, the company to be able to be sold? Am I going to turn the business over to maybe one of my children? Am I going to bring somebody from the outside to run the company. Tell me more about your process to be able to help these high net worth individuals make the strategic decisions they need to make.
Michael Livian 24:55 Look, I think this is a topic again that I have very close to my heart. Cause approached by some strategic buyers. And you know, we are in the business that generates a nice steady cash flow. And we go and ask the same questions to myself. I said, you know, what? Where do I stand? I mean, do I want to build this business for my children? Do I want to pass it on to them? I mean, what’s the endgame and it’s a in I got involved institute that is known as the exit planning Institute. And I found out there is a science behind exit planning, building value for a firm for business owners, me it is medium sized, small sized business owners. And and I came to the realization a very, very large chunk of the businesses in the United States are owned by by private individuals, and that they are in their early 60s, almost, I would say, 75 80%, I don’t remember exactly the statistics, they expressed an interest to retire within the next 10 years. But if you ask them, if they do have a plan, or a written plan, again, 80% of them, they don’t have a plan, they just have an idea and the goal. And also, what were the statistics show is, most of those businesses, they end up not consuming a real transition, you know, they actually have problems before either there’s a disability, there’s some Distress, there’s an issue with the family, they, so they never, the transition does not come to fruition, we really prepared ourselves to work with clients using the science behind the transition planning, and that the numbers and the methodology to make this successful, and to also make it an enjoyable experience for the business owner, because also i’m quoting, Price Waterhouse, they did a survey of business owners that sold their business within 12 months of the sale. And a very large number of those business owners, they say they profoundly regret selling that regret selling the business, transitioning out of the business, whether it’s an external transition, it’s a sale or pass it on passing the business on to a partner or to the children, it requires three things requires emotional preparation, right? I think people do not realize that you know, what, you spend a lifetime building a business, and you’re been running every day, and you know, getting excited dealing with problems, clients making money, and all of a sudden you sell this I mean, your purpose is gone. You are your business if you’re a business owner. So there is some preparation that goes into that, you know, the financial component. I think that that many business owners are not aware of the structure of the transactions, how much they may get out of the transaction, the tax implications, the state implications. So all of these things need to be handled and prepared before you transition not while you’re transitioning. And lastly, I think the majority of business owners don’t really know what that they have an idea of what the value of their businesses, right, but they do not know really how much they can increase the value of their business and how much they can get in a transaction. So these three prongs are the foundations of a plan.
Cliff Locks 28:23 I think that’s very, very important. I mean, I’ve had the privilege of building three companies with successful exits, and it was a plan and there were advisors involved, find folks like yourself that helped guide me through that process. And it was a privilege to work with them. It was emotional. My last transaction, I sold the company to KKR, which is a large venture company company and became part of a fortune 500 Company, which was something new to me versus being entrepreneurial. And then we had the ability to add additional assets. And when we sold the company, again for 1.2 billion in cash. So when you look at things, it’s a process for the entrepreneur, and then the opportunity to do you want to stay with the acquiring company for a period of time. In my case, I stayed for 18 months contractually, and then go on and do something different the tax implications. Those were very, very large checks that had to get written and they need to get planned for.
Michael Livian 29:10 Absolutely, you’re absolutely right. 100%. Right. I think that what typically happens is that when you come to the deal table, the seller just feels very frustrated and pulls out because they just didn’t realize that most transactions, you have an urn out, you have sellers financing, you have taxes, you have commissions, if you do acid sale, you may be penalized and they get very frustrated and they boys up to the point that they may go to the table when they need to sign and you just decide to take a walk and live the negotiation in the deal. So
Cliff Locks 29:46 very interesting. Yeah, I’m on the nother one. Now I’m working with young people and we’re doing the acquiring side and we’re finding ability to stay very friendly with the seller and understand what their needs are. You bring up Something very, very important. See this on your website, know your gaps, you know, the three numbers you should know and manage to achieve your goal that lays out a very positive scenario. And I’d like to go into depth with a little bit from yourself, where this conversation really needs to happen with the seller at this point, because you don’t want buyer, you know, remorse, let’s say, and the seller remorse you don’t want having these conversations where the funds are going to go and understanding the period of time for the transition between the seller and the buyer. And maybe the seller becomes one of the board members, maybe they leave some equity in the company, understanding each other’s needs, I think can allow that transaction to flourish. So tell me more about that. No, you get
Michael Livian 30:43 I think, as a very successful business person yourself, you know, how the mind of, of a business owner works, I think that you need to always simplify things have clear numbers, clear things in your mind, that’s really how we need to have, we cannot deal with that with uncertainty and confusion, our mind always wants to have certainty, even if it’s the wrong certainty, facilitate the process of a business owner transitioning, I think there are three fundamental gaps that they should really have straight in front of their eyes all the time than they can be numerically calculated. They’re extremely important. The first one is what we call the wealth gap. So the wealth gap is essentially what financial planners use all the time is, how much money do I need to live my life the way I want to live it pretty easy to calculate with some trial simulations.
The second component of that calculation is how much do I have today that is liquid and investable, that can get me there, the vast majority of the times there’s a giant gap between the two specially for business owners element that was going to fill in that gap is the value of the business. So essentially, if you want to get to a point where you’re comfortable, and you know that you can really go on with your life and do whatever you want in peace, you need to make sure that that gap is filled by the value of your business after tax after transaction costs, if you do an exit, and that’s really what you are working towards. Now, this leads to the second part, which is what is the value of the business? Is it sufficient? Can they grow it enough to act as a plug to kind of close that wealth gap? So there’s two components that you want to evaluate? One is a profit gap. And then if you have a value gap, so what are these gaps? Today?
Luckily, we have a lot of tools and technology in databases, also in the private markets, as opposed to the public markets, where you can benchmark your business. So the income gap, essentially, is a measure of the difference between if you take the best in class company in your specific sector, and yourself, what is your EBITDA margin, or adjusted or recast the beta, you want to make sure that in the private business world that you need to make some adjustments is not like in the public markets. So you need to add back certain numbers remove them, so you need to fix calculation for your EBITDA. But what you’re looking at is, what is my EBITDA margin on the revenues that they have? And what is the EBITDA margin of the best in class company. And then I think part of the exercise is to see what levers Do I have to increase the profitability of my business, that’s kind of part of the exercise of accelerating buildup in value in your business. But it’s, it’s a number that you should know as, as I think that that when you have numbers in front of you, it gives you a different motivation. It’s not an idea, it’s not a concept, you can compare. So you know what my EBITDA margin is, like 15% the best in class companies, their EBITDA is 25%, maybe I can increase my profitability by 5% By doing this, this this this And lastly, is your your value gap is essentially the value of the best in class company in the same sector. Same type of business, if you apply a multiple to their EBITDA. And if you apply a multiple to your EBITDA, you can calculate the difference using the same level of sales. So if you have best in class margins, and best in class multiples, and you have your multiple and your margins, that gives you an idea of how much value creation you could aspire to achieve. get to that point, ultimately, if there’s sufficient money to close your wealth gap.
So this these three elements together, they work as a foundation to make to build a plan. They give you the right motivation, but also the Right tools, then to go deeper into some assessment and analysis at the business level as a personal finance level, and see, you know how you can adjust, I think it’s very important to start with simple, clean, good numbers. I think when business owners see these things, they’re Wow. Alright, now, I know what I need to do. And let’s work on this. And let’s work and there’s a whole process behind this, build all the different plans to close those value gaps and those income gaps and those wealth gaps.
Cliff Locks 35:32 Very, very comprehensive. I mean, you bring forth a lot of wealth of knowledge for that high net worth individual to really understand a vision of what success looks like, you know, as they continue to age and they got to make some decisions with their business, it would be very, very positive for our listeners to partner with you, Michael, what do you love about what you do? And what do you find most rewarding? personally?
Michael Livian 35:54 It’s a very good question. There’s two things that they’re always loved. And they think that’s why I went into this profession, I have a deeper intellectual curiosity. I like numbers, I like concepts, ideas, businesses, I like studying and researching. If I if my, my family makes fun of me, they say should be an academic, you know, it’s I should be teaching stuff. Because I really love learning. And I think being in the finance sector, it allows me to learn everyday more. I mean, there’s so much we can learn on the quantitative side, on the analytical side, and the research side, on the tax side, there’s so much you continuously learn and learn and learn. And I really enjoyed and I can share it obviously, with with my clients. So this is one thing that I like, really makes me happy that because of person I am, I really get enormous satisfaction when I can help people and I do something meaningful for them that and we have all sorts of people, all sorts of clients, we do get the often people will make a big change in their life very happy. And they’re very grateful. The reward that they get from that is priceless. It’s not a monetary reward. It’s like, you know, I feel like I really did accomplish something, you know, somebody that had some issues, and they need to fix things. And they had that. And they’re just grateful, you know, that I help them out, or we help them out as a team. I’m
Cliff Locks 37:12 not alone. I see you and your team cares about their investor. Now with COVID-19. Some of the economic disruptions tell our listeners about the program that provides an objective second opinion, from your trusted and professional team are hurt. There’s no fees, no stress, no obligations,
Michael Livian 37:28 things now are a little bit better. And obviously, I’m very happy that got out of the stressful times that we experienced at the beginning of COVID. For many people, this was just the catastrophic event that came out of nowhere, I think it was the economy was doing perfectly fine. Everything was doing perfectly fine. All of a sudden, you are faced with issues and problems that seem insurmountable. You cannot walk out of your house, you cannot walk out of your apartment, you think you’re extremely wealthy, because you you own a nice office building downtown, and all of a sudden you don’t have tenants. You have a hotel, and you know, they forced you to shut it down. A lot of people, their life changed overnight. We offered early days, our services for free to not all our services, but at least an initial review and assessment and financial situation of some of our clients. We offer them a free consultation to see where they stood, how they were invested if they had the proper investment plans, who are benefiting from all of the things that our government has been extending to people. So we just wanted to assist people.
Cliff Locks 38:40 I truly appreciate you spending this quality educational time with our listeners today. Michael, it is my pleasure, Cliff. Michael, can I share your contact information with our listeners, please? Yeah, absolutely. You can reach Michael Levin. His email is at m Levin at Levin co.com Lubin co comm is spelled Li ve i a n co.co m that’s Li ve i a n co.com and you can also reach Michael at 212-319-8900. Again, Michael’s phone number is 212-319-8900 Thank you to our listeners. I look forward to being back with you shortly for another episode of the private equity profits podcast. The show has been produced by market domination LLC. I’ll see you next time. This is Cliff Fox
